Today, I am attending “The Cross of Christ: Redemption Accomplished” Conference in Anaheim, California with R.C. Sproul and Ligon Duncan.
Last night I got a chance to spend some time with Dr. Sproul and talk about eschatology. I mentioned to him that I felt like in his book “The Last Days According to Jesus” that he really didn’t let his readers know which eschatological camp he was in: Premil, Postmil, or Amil. He laughed heartily and replied, “That’s right, because I don’t actually know. I see valid points in all of them and weaknesses, too.” R.C. made sure that I knew that he was a partial preterist who viewed this age in a very positive way. He talked about how the church in the West is filled with apostasy and liberalism but in other parts of the world the church is doing great. When he spoke of these matters he sounded like an Amillennialist. But he said that when it came to Romans chapter 11 that he agreed with Charles Hodge and believed that there was something in the future specially for the ethnic Jews of Israel. His view of Romans 11 was similar to Historical Premil. He then apologized to me for being confused. Now that was humbling. If it were not for Dr. Sproul quite possibly I could still be an Arminian – so don’t apologize to me, Dr. Sproul. In fact, to confess that some theology confuses you encourages me and reminds me that we all approach the Bible from the same place – a place of desperate need for God’s wisdom!
The service last night was a Q&A session with Dr. Sproul. Here are some of the answers he gave. There were more questions than what I have listed below and, of course, Dr. Sproul’s answers were longer than what I have given below. But I thought you may enjoy this abridged version.
Q – How do you feel about current supernatural works of the Holy Spirit?
A – I feel good about the Holy Spirit miraculously doing His work of bringing men to salvation… But concerning miracles as defined theologically I am a cessationist…. Miracles in Scripture were used by God to verify and authenticate agents of revelation and to verify the divinity of Christ… God is not doing such miracles today.
Q – Are Arminians saved?
A – The real question is whether they are safe… Saved? Most are, barely… really the debate between Calvinists and Arminians is an intramural debate among Christians.
Q – Why is tension between Reformed Christians and Conservative Evangelical over the doctrine of predestination?
A – There has been tension in nearly every century for 2000 years so we shouldn’t be alarmed… The good news is Conservative Evangelicals believe that there is a biblical doctrine of predestination. The issue is what is the definition… Some are upset with this doctrine because it seems to cancel human free will and it seems to make God unfair and unloving… Arminians never get charged with their gospel making God look unrighteous. But Paul knew that his definition of predestination would bring that charge, so he anticipates the charge in Romans 9 by asking, “Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!”
Q – Is Israel still an entity in God’s plan or has Israel been replaced by God?
A – Yes… but Dispensationalism is flat out wrong!
Q – How do you feel about last nights game between Pittsburg and Miami?
A – It reconfirmed the grace of God.
Q – The church is always under attack, but what do you see as the most dangerous?
A – Hostility of the secular culture and those who want to use the power of the state to mute and marginalize the church… the secularization of worship… but always the greatest enemy of the church is not from without but within, the false teachers.
Nothing new there. Nothing too upsetting. It was the comment about Israel and the comments that followed. Actually, it was something Gene had said in his discussion with "Dee Dee Warren" of PreteristSite.com and TheologyWeb.com fame and later with Jason Robertson in his discussion of DiSpENSATIONALism, NCT and CT regarding the "future" of "Israel" that gets me so riled up - especially when people bring up Romans 11 as if Romans 11 is somehow separate from the context of the rest of the Bible, and history, and soteriology, and anthropology, and genealogy, and ..., and ...!!!
So my first post was: Hi all, I'm new to Fide-O and Blogger so pardon me if I jump right in. I've been listening to Gene's audio files where he mentions this thing and browsed on over when one of my favorite people (R.C.) and subjects (Rom 11 & ethnic Israel) caught my eye. Irenaeus' comments were by far the most intriguing, but I'll leave those for another day and just ask a few general questions.
ReplyDelete1) Does anyone here believe that there is presently such a thing as an "ethnic Israel"?
2) If so, what tribe or tribes are they composed of and how do they prove/justify such a claim
a) since A.D. 70?
b.) 586 B.C.? or
c.) 721 B.C.? etc.
3) Is Romans 11 not in the conditional subjunctive mood and
4) in v.26 the little word "SO" (which means "in this manner") is followed by the statement "all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer Will Come out of Zion and He Will Turn Away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My Covenant with them, when I Take Away their sins." I ask you guys, when did this occur?!? Is this a future prophecy or a past event/promise fulfilled?!
This is The Very Gospel Fulfilled in Christ Jesus! The Deliverer Has Come! He Has Turned Away ungodliness from Jacob/Israel/the people of God! He Has Established His Covenant with them! He Has Taken Away their sins! This is the Promise of Isa 59:20-21 & 27:9!!! Jesus had told His disciples that everything that was written about Him in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms had to be fulfilled concerning Him (Luke 24:44). Well, the Promise of the Coming Deliverer was one of those things... The problem with reading Romans 11 is that Paul waffles back and forth between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel and expects his readers to know the difference. After all, it was just a few chapters earlier in Romans 9:6 that he made the statement that "they are not all Israel which are OF Israel" and he has just been talking about the vast majority of the natural branches being broken off (more like 2/3 of the tree! "ax laid to the roots") and wild branches being grafted in or the vast majority of Israel (so much so that Elijah thought he was the only one left!) "killing [the] prophets and [tearing] down [the] altars" but God had a "remnant" or King David pleading AGAINST his own countrymen for God to "give them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear...and bow down their back ALWAYS" These were the Covenant people - the "elect" if you will. The Chosen. And yet, they weren't THE Chosen. The elect within the elect. The "Israel" which were of Israel. What I'm saying is this: IF there is an ethnic Israel alive on the earth today, on what basis do they have hope before God IN ROMANS 11? Is it a "future" hope? Or is their hope where our hope lies - in a past fulfillment on the Cross? God knows ya'll aren't helping them with this pretense of an ethnic tie to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Palestine.
9/12/2006 10:20 PM
Then I left a another comment: One more thing, all this stuff about fulfillment and promises, etc. I don't know why you guys don't just quote a passage like Rom 15:8 "For I say that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of The Truth of God to CONFIRM THE PROMISES made to the fathers..." or my personal favorite Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A New Covenant," HE HAS MADE THE FIRST OBSOLETE. Now that which is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
ReplyDelete9/14/2006 11:07 PM